Shen’s anger and ambivalence about Trump’s call speak to broader anxiety in China right now about what to make of the U.S. president-elect and the trajectory of relations between the two countries. When I asked Shen whether he was concerned about a Trump presidency destabilizing international affairs, he told me disorder was already upon us. When I asked him whether he thought America, under Trump, would remain the most powerful nation on the planet, he answered without hesitation: “No.” An edited and condensed transcript of our conversation follows.

Uri Friedman: You’ve studied U.S.-China relations for a long time. What was your initial impression of Trump’s Taiwan call?

Shen Dingli: I think the president-elect is still a private citizen. Any American private citizen has the right to say anything that goes against the U.S. government, [including] policy on China. The U.S. government can only make the government itself observe the line.

Friedman: Why do you make the distinction between a private citizen and the president? In just a couple months, Trump is going to be president.

Shen: Any bullshitter can say bullshit things. So I don’t care what he says. But if [and when] he is president, I really care.

Taiwan is a part of China, so the U.S. should not touch [it]. Like how the Hawaii independence movement, the Texas independence movement, [should be considered] U.S. internal affairs that China should not touch.

Friedman: What is your sense of how the Chinese government is processing Trump’s call to Taiwan so far?

Shen: [Chinese leaders] are downplaying it, [suggesting that] he has been played by Taiwan. The Washington Post is saying no, he played Taiwan. China has been hurt by Trump, but the Chinese government wants to protect Trump by saying no, he did not place the call, he is just inexperienced, so why do we care?

Friedman: Why do you think the Chinese government wants to protect Trump?

Shen: Because what can you do? Can you really cut off the official relationship with the U.S.? No, you cannot. You [may] hurt yourself more than America. So the Chinese government does not want to hurt China by hurting Trump. But I don’t care. I’m not the government.

Friedman: In the days after the U.S. election, you cheered Trump’s victory. People might be surprised to hear that, since Trump bashed China during the campaign and talked about imposing a 45-percent tariff on Chinese imports, which could risk a trade war. What made you say that at the time?

Shen: Trump does not care about human rights; he traded with China [as a businessman]. Democrats care more about human rights—sometimes, they place values above trade. The Republicans, oftentimes, care more about trade. For trade, Obama created the [Trans-Pacific Partnership] that excludes China, that makes China less able to export competently. Trump would abolish the TPP, which would give China some breathing space.